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2020 Q1
2020 Q2
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[1] Specific show dates and/or exhibitors lists are in progress, need to revisit to confirm AMD's participation
[2] Show cancelled or postponed due to COVID-19 concerns
Note: If you have a link you'd like to share, PM me or post the info below.
Written by Bill Ung
submitted by brad4711 to AMD_Stock

[Megathread] XMG ULTRA 17 in 2020 (LGA1200, Z490, MXM)

Hi guys,
the ultimate, the best, the superior... XMG ULTRA 17.
(Header image)
Press Announcements:
Brief overview:
  • Data sheet and key features can be found on XMG ULTRA 17 product page at bestware.com
  • Photos and overviews of the technical structure inside will be added shortly.
  • We will accept pre-orders from May 13, 2020.
  • Delivery and reviews are planned for the end of June.
The number of samples before series production will be quite narrow again due to COVID-19 bottlenecks, especially on the side of chassis part suppliers.
The following sections deal with all questions and information that we couln't quite fit into the product page in the shop.

Real-life Pictures:



FAQ - Frequently Asked Questions

Q: What is the maximum power consumption of CPU and graphics card?
A: On the CPU side, the system is specified for a continuous power-draw of up to 125W TDP, which is exactly what Intel specified for the new top-of-the-line CPU Intel Core i9-10900K. We will only find out at the beginning of mass production to what extent and for how long this limit can be exceeded for increased Turbo Boost.
The NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2070 SUPER (Max-P) is specified by NVIDIA for 115W TGP, which can also permanently provided by the XMG ULTRA 17 under full load.
For the NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 SUPER (Max-P), NVIDIA offers various VBIOS levels, ranging from 150W to 200W. We use the maximum unlocked stage with 200W, while other manufacturers may offer a reduced TGP stage without clearly indicating it. Some manufacturers also use the especially reduced Max-Q version of the RTX 2080 (Super), which has to be content with only 80~95W TGP and thus cannot come close to the performance in XMG ULTRA 17. We will always indicate the TGP levels our our dGPU in our product spec sheet.

Q: Is the XMG ULTRA 17 designed for permanent full load?
A: The power supply and cooling system of the XMG ULTRA 17 are designed for simultaneous 24/7 continuous load of CPU and graphics card, even in the maximum performance profile. The TDP or TGP specified by the manufacturer are to be permanently achieved, i.e. 125W (Intel) and 200W NVIDIA make a total of 325W plus additional consumption of chipset, up to 4 memory slots (maximum 128GB) and other components.

Q: How fast is an RTX 2080 Super (Max-P) with 200W compared to the 150W counterparts of other manufacturers?
A: It is faster. Due to the principle of diminishing returns, performance and power consumption at the top end of the scale do not scale linearly, but the additional 50W still means a significant power gain. How big the difference exactly will be, we will only see after the start of serial production, if competitors come onto the market with a 150W RTX 2080 'SUPER' by then. Unfortunately, the power consumption cannot be adjusted manually as NVIDIA does not provide an API for this in their VBIOS or drivers - so we can not manually test how our 200W GPU would perform at 150W power level.

Q: What is the maximum memory capacity? Do I have to sacrifice speed or latency when using 128GB DDR4?
A: The Intel Comet Lake S platform officially supports maximum 2933MHz (DDR4-2933). With the XMP profiles in the XMG ULTRA 17, however, operation at 3200MHz is also possible. In which configurations the top speeds are possible and which RAM modules with possibly lower latencies are supported, will only become apparent after the start of series production. At present we cannot yet make a final statement as to whether the peak configuration of 128GB (4x 32GB) can also be operated at 3200MHz, or whether it will clock down to 2933MHz or even less.

Q: What's the layout of the cooling system? Does XMG ULTRA 17 use a vapor chamber?
A: We will upload a picture of the cooling system layout shortly. There are 10 heatpipes and a vaporchamber. No matter which CPU or GPU option you chose, you will always get the maxed-out version of the cooling system.

Q: How loud are the fans at low/medium/high load?
A: Due to the energy saving profiles and the dynamic clock behavior of the Intel and NVIDIA chips, the XMG ULTRA 17 can be used almost silently for normal office and multimedia activities without any problems. Due to the massive cooling potential, even medium loads can be cooled away relatively quietly. In the pre-installed Control Center, the fan curves can also be edited manually - either as an offset or in a manual point diagram.
Final specifications for the different performance profiles (Power Saving, Quiet, Entertainment, Performance) and an overview over the pre-installed fan curves will be available approximately at the start of series production from the end of June.

Q: Is the XMG ULTRA 17 suitable for real-time audio/video applications?
A: With the help of our experience with the professionally optimised SCHENKER AUDIO-Edition, we will ensure that real-time audio/video applications with a large number of connected peripherals run without problems and without dropouts on the XMG ULTRA 17, even under high load. This includes stable low DPC latencies (measured in LatencyMon), firmware optimizations, a trimmed Windows installation as well as the broadest possible testing of high-end audio peripherals by our partner Arkaei.

Q: What is the logic behind the dual 280W power supply?
A: The XMG ULTRA 17 is supplied with two 280W power supply units, which can be inserted in a holding rack (see picture) which is included in every ULTRA 17 and which saves space and provides passive cooling thanks to the generously perforated outer wall. This overall concept has the following advantages:
  • Since every user gets both power supplies from the beginning, later CPU and graphics card upgrades are possible without any problems, without the user running his upgraded configuration with a too small power supply configuration.
  • The previous maximum power supply size was 330W, but this would not have been enough for the extreme configuration of the XMG ULTRA 17.
  • Development and forecast/production of two identical power supplies is much more cost-effective than if two different power supplies had been developed for different purposes. It also reduces the risk of confusion during later upgrades or if the laptop changes hands.
/edit 5 August 2020: Unfortunately, operating XMG ULTRA 17 on a single 280W will be very limited.
  • The CPU and GPU performance will drop down to Battery Mode performance, but without actually depleting the battery.
  • In this mode, the system will draw only up to a maximum of 110W out of the wall socket, despite having a 280W adapter
  • This will limit the CPU Package Power to around 30W. Enough for simple tasks, but surely not enough for serious CPU rendering
  • The system will require the Li-Ion battery to be present and to have at least 10% charge
  • With a single power supply, it won't be possible to charge the battery, even when the system is powered off
These limitations are due to a certain inflexibility in how the power circuits on the mainboard can be programmed. The ~110W limitations are in place to protect the system (and especially the Li-Ion battery) from power spikes and degradation. While it is definitely safe to use XMG ULTRA 17 with only a single charger, it won't be very useful. And if your battery level drops to 10% or below, the system won't even boot anymore, unless you recharge the battery with both chargers.
Conclusion: operating with only a single charger is useful only for emergency situations. Whenever using XMG ULTRA 17 in a productive environment, the user is required to bring the full rack containing both chargers.
A full comparison against current 230W and previous 330W power supply including model numbers can be found in this comparison table. Short version:
Power / Type x (mm) y (mm) z (mm) weight (g)
230W (latest) 155 75 30 ~700
280W (new) 180 85 35 ~412
330W (old) 200 100 43 ~1260
By the way: compared to the 330W power supply of the previous XMG ULTRA and SCHENKER DTR series, the new 280W power supply has a new high performance connector, which is longer and more stable and protects the power supply from accidentally being pulled out. The predecessors were still based on a modification of the four-pin so called "Mini-DIN" connector, which in the meantime had become quite old and was not always perfectly suited for mobile, sometimes quite bumpy mobile use.

Q: How easy is it to maintain and upgrade XMG ULTRA 17?
A: The bottom service cover can be lifted off by removing just a few screws, giving free access to all components. Upgrades of SSD, RAM and WLAN and regular cleaning of the cooling system are expressly welcomed.
Exception: two out of four RAM slots are located on the other side, under the keyboard. When assembling customer orders with only one or two RAM modules, the banks on the underside of the notebook are filled first. Reason: in case of troubleshooting or if RAM fails and has to be replaced, the replacement can be done without removing the keyboard. On the other hand, if you want to add 2 additional modules after purchasing, you will have to open the keyboard. This is a fairly straightforward procedure. A clear service manual will be provided in our download area.
If you prefer that we install the RAM under the keyboard so that you can add two more modules directly after the purchase, please mention this in the order note.

Q: How does the self cleaning of the cooling system work?
A: The fans rotate backwards at full speed for a short time when the system is started. Dust and other foreign objects that have settled on the inside of the cooling fins are sucked away by the cooling fins and disposed of through the anti-dust tunnel. In the Control Center you can set how often this action should be carried out (e.g. either manually as desired, or perhaps only 1x per week).

Q: Is it really not possible to install 2.5" drives?
A: The XMG ULTRA 17 has four (4) M.2 slots, three of which are validated for the use of PCI-Express 3.0 NVMe SSDs. Measured in gigabytes per volume, M.2 SSDs have a significantly higher data density than 2.5" drives - hard disks included. Although the XMG ULTRA 17 is a fairly large case, it has a trimmed footprint (at least at the front and sides) compared to its predecessor due to the narrow bezel design (thin screen frame).
Almost the entire surface of the interior construction is reserved for the massive cooling system and the multitude of I/O ports. The rest of the space is used for the removable 97 Wh battery. This is more than just a UPS - the XMG ULTRA 17 can be operated on light load for several hours without any problems, even far away from the power outlet.
Further information and pictures on the internal structure and battery life will be provided shortly.

Q: Can the RGB LED lights be switched off completely?
A: Keyboard lighting and the rear RGB/LED lighting strip can be permanently deactivated separately in the Control Center. Alternatively, it is possible to simply disconnect the corresponding RGB/LED cables from the mainboard. With the keyboard, the backlighting runs over a cable which is separated from the keyboard key logic. The rear light strip has its own cable, which can also be easily detached from the mainboard after opening the underside of the laptop. If you wish, we can do this when assembling your order - just write it in the remark area when you order on bestware.com.

Q: Is it possible to use the Intel CPU graphics unit - either to save energy or to use Intel QuickSync?
A: The Intel Graphics Unit is completely disconnected in the mainboard of the XMG ULTRA 17 - it is not even supplied with power. This serves the efficiency of the laptop to a small extent (especially in idle), but it also simplifies the layout of the power supply for the CPU and dedicated graphics card.
This means that the laptop always operates in "discrete mode", so the NVIDIA graphics card works just like in a desktop system. This virtually eliminates any technical incompatibilities that sometimes occur with hybrid graphics solutions in notebooks. For example, it allows you to use ShadowPlay on the Windows desktop to record video, it support G-SYNC and Dynamic Super Resolution and it's unlikely that you'll ever run into any VR compatibility issues on this machine.
The same is true for our XMG NEO and PRO series where MSHybrid can be deactivated and for XMG APEX 15 where the iGPU is not connected either.
Unfortunately, it is not possible to use Intel QuickSync with this solution. For hardware acceleration of video encoding, we recommend using NVEnc on the GeForce RTX graphics card. Thankfully, Adobe has recently announced that they will roll-out NVEnc support for video encoding in Adobe Premiere Pro this year.
The discontinuation of iGPU support means that you can also use the so-called "F" processors from Intel, such as the i9-9900KF. These "F" variants are supplied without iGPU, but are otherwise identical in terms of price and performance to their non-F counterparts. In the past, it has happened that certain "K" processors were not available on the market due to Intel's 14nm supply issues, while "KF" was available in good numbers.
By the way: the "F" variants do not leave out the iGPU - it is simply deactivated. It is assumed that Intel can use chips whose iGPUs fall out of the series in the factory internal validation test. This is similar to how an 8-core is sold as a 6-core if 1 or 2 cores do not perform as they should. But, fun fact: the iGPU in the "F" SKUs is switched off by Intel, but in usual iGPU-enabled desktop mainboards it still draws its idle power from the mainboard. By cutting the iGPU power supply, we save 2-3W (no matter if "F" or "KF" SKU) in system consumption, which has an albeit slight but still overall positive effect on battery life and cooling performance.

Q: Can the XMG ULTRA 17 be operated without a dedicated graphics card?
A: Due to the omission of the iGPU, operation without an MXM graphics card is impossible. Even if the iGPU had been supported, all external display connections (HDMI, DisplayPort, Thunderbolt) would have been connected to the dedicated graphics card, so that it would not be possible to connect external displays in pure iGPU operation. A variant without a dedicated graphics card would therefore be a completely new project that goes beyond the scope of the XMG ULTRA 17. Current laptops with a powerful CPU, generous RAM equipment and without dGPU can currently be found in the SCHENKER WORK series, e.g. the WORK 15 and WORK 17.

Q: Is the XMG ULTRA 17 able to support SLI graphics?
A: No. The mainboard of the XMG ULTRA 17 has only one MXM graphics card slot. Support for SLI has been discontinued by NVIDIA for mobile platforms with the RTX generation. The last XMG laptop with SLI was the XMG ZENITH 17 from 2017 and 2018. Whether mobile SLI will return in the future is currently unknown, but for XMG ULTRA 17 in the 2020 edition it is definitely impossible.
SLI graphics was a double-edged sword anyway. Micro-stuttering could never be completely eliminated and the advantages of the new RTX architecture probably can't be implemented as well on dual chip solutions because the connection between the chips and the collusion in the driver is too narrow a bottleneck.
Instead of SLI graphics in the XMG ULTRA 17, in the case of the new NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 SUPER, the TGP of the dedicated graphics card was increased to a new maximum of 200W. So you pay for just one graphics card, but still enjoy groundbreaking performance. It actually goes against NVIDIA CEO Jen-Hsun Huang's infamous catchphrase: The more you buy, the more you save... ( ͡° ل͜ ͡°)

Q: Will this chassis allow upgrades to future Intel and NVIDIA generations, such as Intel Rocket Lake and NVIDIA Ampere and Hopper?
A: According to media reports, the LGA1200 socket and the Z490 chipset used in the XMG ULTRA 17 should also be compatible with Intel's planned 'Rocket Lake' generation. When and under what circumstances (and with what restrictions, if any) this will really apply, however, can only be said after the currently undated official launch of 'Rocket Lake'.
At NVIDIA, things look even less clear: MXM slot (pin assignment and power supply) and board layout (arrangement, height of the components to be cooled) are not fully standardized and NVIDIA may it again for future generations. Even if the technical conditions do not change much (e.g. 200W TGP, same MXM pinout and if differences in cooling groups can be compensated with thermal pads), full support on BIOS and VBIOS level is still needed to ensure energy saving measures, fan control and support of external display outputs.
Thus, no statement can be made yet as to whether future NVIDIA graphics chips can be retrofitted and officially installed in the 2020 edition of the XMG ULTRA 17. On the one hand, we do welcome subsequent (even unofficial) user upgrades and are keen to extend the longevity of our flagship products as much as possible. On the other hand, technical and logistical support for MXM upgrades has proven to be increasingly difficult in recent years, so we prefer not to make any generous promises in this regard.

Q: Is the XMG ULTRA 17 with Z490 chipset prepared for future PCI Express 4.0 support?
A: According to a report from Computerbase (Google Translate), some Z490 desktop motherboards are already promoting future support for PCI Express 4.0, even though Intel's current Comet Lake generation only supports PCIe 3.0. There are contradictory statements about the support of PCIe 4.0 on Z490 chipsets that is actually planned with Intel's planned successor generation 'Rocket Lake'. Furthermore, laptop mainboards have less headroom for overprovisioning than their desktop counterparts due to space and cooling considerations. Therefore, our current official statement is that we currently only guarantee PCIe 3.0, and do not anticipate that this will change later with a BIOS update for possible support of Rocket Lake CPUs.
If it turns out that Intel and our ODM can provide support for PCIe 4.0 on a future CPU, we would of course pass this on to existing customers free of charge. However, there is no guarantee for this at this time.

Q: Are there plans for future support of Thunderbolt 4 and USB 4.0?
A: Intel's next planned desktop generation 'Rocket Lake' may also include support for USB 4.0 and Thunderbolt 4, according to media reports. However, as this has not yet been officially confirmed by Intel, we are not able to comment on this yet. The same principles apply here as were already established for PCIe 4.0: Laptops have a higher integration and certification effort and less headroom for overprovisioning, so we have to be careful. With Thunderbolt 4, there is also the fact that this will in all likelihood require a costly re-certification by Intel, which then applies not only to the chipset itself but to the entire product (XMG ULTRA 17).
Our first laptop with USB 4.0 and Thunderbolt 4 support will most likely be a previously unannounced ultra-light notebook with Intel 'Tiger Lake'.

Q: Will the XMG ULTRA 17 also be available with AMD CPU?
A: Support for AMD CPUs in XMG ULTRA is currently not planned. This would require a completely new mainboard layout and also a different cooling system. AMD's support for mobile high-end projects (high development costs, relatively small quantities) is currently not well enough positioned. We are currently gathering our first experiences with AMD desktop CPUs on a laptop platform in XMG APEX 15.
AMD currently has a head start in synthetic multi-core performance, on the one hand due to the more modern multi-core architecture, but also quite considerably due to the use of 7 and 10nm manufacturing technology at TSMC. But despite 14nm+++, Intel remains the leader in single thread performance relevant to many applications and has a broader technical ecosystem with excellent OEM/ODM-level technical support and reliable availability of key components with short lead times. More background information is available in this article on Igor's Lab.
It is also quite possible that Intel has superior power-saving mechanisms which enable Intel's desktop CPUs to run at significantly lower power consumption in Idle and Office scenarios compared to their AMD desktop counterparts.
Intel has also significantly lowered CPU prices with the release of the "Comet Lake S" generation, which has significantly melted down the performance per Euro gap to AMD, especially in the high-end segment. The question of long-term outlook regarding the TCO (Total Cost of Ownership, e.g. firmware and driver support for future operating systems, long-term RMA rate) remains open for the time being.

Q: Are AMD graphics cards based on MXM planned for this chassis?
A: Currently there are no dedicated AMD graphics cards planned in our laptops. NVIDIA still has an excellent performance to power consumption ratio. We recognize that some customers may prefer to have an AMD graphics card (either because of brand affinity or because of AMD's open Linux graphics drivers). However, the argument that has already been put forward above for AMD CPUs comes into play here: lack of support from AMD and their toolchains unfortunately still prevents the necessary investment in development costs for AMD graphics in laptops. MXM is a very shaky standard anyway. The last time we were able to offer NVIDIA and AMD in parallel in one MXM card was in the XMG P703 in 2013. At that time, the MXM pin assignment of AMD and NVIDIA was slightly different, so that with an AMD MXM graphics card in a motherboard prepared for NVIDIA, for example, you had to accept certain limitations regarding the support of external HDMI 2.0.
To our knowledge there is not even an MXM reference layout for current AMD mobile chips available from AMD at the moment. In view of AMD's market strategy, which primarily focuses on the price-sensitive mass market (notebooks with integrated graphics or ULV CPU) or on scaling by extremely large, global partners (Apple MacBooks, Microsoft XBox, PlayStation 4, most recently also Acer) for solutions with high integration effort (embedded, mobile), the chances for the integration and standardization of AMD MXM graphics cards look relatively meager in our opinion for the foreseeable future.
But even those who do not buy AMD graphics today can rest assured: NVIDIA feels the market pressure from AMD in the desktop area and reacts accordingly. It was probably not without reason that NVIDIA enabled support for external monitors with AMD FreeSync (VESA Adaptive Sync) in their driver in early 2019 - both for desktop cards and external notebook connections. This means that NVIDIA has partially moved away from the vendor lock-in of its proprietary G-SYNC technology.
Overall, the strength of AMD (including its APU units, which compete with NVIDIA's lower entry-level segment) is a massive innovation driver for the large companies that are still considered world leaders. This in turn benefits the buyers of the XMG ULTRA 17 with NVIDIA GeForce RTX graphics. They benefit, for example, from the development and broad game engine support of extremely promising technologies such as DLSS 2.0, with which NVIDIA's GeForce RTX cards with hardware-integrated Tensor Core units still have a clear technological advantage over AMD.

Q: Are there plans to support Intel 'DG1' (formerly 'Xe') graphics?
A: According to media reports, Intel's first dedicated graphics card is currently primarily designed for the highly specialized 'enterprise' market. With our quite good contacts to Intel (both locally in Europe and on the corporate level in the USA and Taiwan), ever since the first rumors about 'Artic Sound' (Intel's original code name for dedicated graphics) emerged, we've been pushing at various conventions and meetings for support of the MXM standard and extensive compatibility with NVIDIA's high-end technical requirements as a gateway to quickly build market share in the mobile sector and introduce a varied audience of high-end enthusiasts to Intel's new dGPU technology.
But considering the fact that the DG1 graphics technology will also be used as integrated graphics in the upcoming ULV generation 'Tiger Lake', as well as Intel's tendency in recent years to prefer to create their own, customized and trademark-protected standards (e.g. Thunderbolt, Optane hybrid memory, Compute Card, Compute Module, Compute Element), we don't hold out much hope for MXM support of dedicated Intel graphics in the coming years.
This information is purely based on our experience and deduction of public available information. We do not have any official information from Intel about their long-term plans on dGPU graphics in laptops one way or the other.

Q: Can I install the new RTX 2080 SUPER MXM card in my 2019 XMG ULTRA (or earlier)?
A: The RTX 2080 SUPER is specified for a maximum power consumption of 200W. Previous editions of the XMG ULTRA series (with GTX 1080 and RTX 2080) were specified for a maximum power consumption of 150W. This applies to both the cooling and the power supply on the mainboard.
The VBIOS is provided by NVIDIA and cannot be modified. NVIDIA also does not provide an API to optionally reduce the TGP if necessary. An upgrade from older editions of the XMG ULTRA series to the new RTX 2080 SUPER is therefore categorically almost impossible. If someone has a realistic approach to support such a project with special tools and skills, we can support such a project with spare parts (e.g. heat sinks, case covers) and technical documentation. Please send your request via PM.

So much for the FAQ in the first edition. More questions will surely be added in the next weeks.

Pre-order XMG ULTRA 17 now!

XMG ULTRA 17 on Bestware.com

Questions to the community:
  • Which CPU and graphics card would you configure in XMG ULTRA 17?
  • For which primary purposes are you considering purchasing the XMG ULTRA 17?
  • How much time would you invest in optimizing your RAM configuration (frequencies, latencies) and which concrete application scenarios should benefit from this?
  • Which features would you like to see on the firmware side?
  • Which peripherals would you like to bundle with the XMG ULTRA 17?
  • What special services can we offer you around the XMG ULTRA 17?

We thank you for your attention and are looking forward to your feedback!
// Tom
submitted by XMG_gg to XMG_gg

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