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On Kaminsod's origin: my findings so far

This post is inspired by the recent post by u/lost_highlander .
  • Motivation
In a recent interview at The Second Apocalypse Cast(time mark 1:30:00), SE revealed that:
...as for where The Crippled god is from, yeah, there are some pretty strong hints in the series... and you are welcome to go find them
His comment comes from u/Grindingstone question presented in this post.
Since I've been researching the subject for some time now, I concluded that it was a good moment to release my findings in this format( I didn't think there was any interest in this kind of pursuit, but I've been proven wrong).
  • What's on text
These come by book number, only those I deem essential, and only the segments important.

  1. MoI

TCG talks to his priest Munug:
The god hissed. ‘Nor should you expect it! Not in this life, not in the thousand others you are doomed to endure before you attain salvation – assuming you have suffered enough to have earned it!
  • Kaminsod is talking about a cycle of reincarnation here, that eventually leads to salvation earned by suffering

  1. HoC
Were all of the jade giants appearing somewhere in his own realm? That seemed impossible. They would be present in countless locations, if that was the case. Present, and inescapably visible. No, the wound was enormous, the giants diminishing into specks before reaching its waiting oblivion. A wound such as that could swallow thousands of worlds. Tens, hundreds of thousands.
Heboric's visions inside the Jade Giant
There were voices roaring through his skull. Too many, in languages he could not recognize, much less comprehend.
Then a string of words reached through the tumult, close as if whispered in his ear, and he understood them. ‘You came from there. What shall we find, Handless One? What lies beyond the gash?’
Then another voice spoke, louder, more imperious: ‘What god now owns your hands, old man? Tell me! Even their ghosts are not here — who is holding on to you? Tell me!’
There are no gods,’ a third voice cut in, this one female.
‘So you say!’ came yet another, filled with spite. ‘In your empty, barren, miserable world!’
‘Gods are born of belief, and belief is dead. We murdered it, with our vast intelligence. You were too primitive—’
‘Killing gods is not hard. The easiest murder of all. Nor is it a measure of intelligence. Not even of civilization. Indeed, the indifference with which such death-blows are delivered is its own form of ignorance.’
‘More like forgetfulness. After all, it’s not the gods that are important, it is the stepping outside of oneself that gifts a mortal with virtue—’
‘Kneel before Order? You blind fool—’
‘Order? I was speaking of compassion—’
‘Fine, then go ahead! Step outside yourself, Leandris! No, better yet. Step outside.’
‘Only the new one can do that, Cassa. And he’d better be quick about it.’
  1. The followers of TCG speak "many languages".
  2. "your barren miserable world" so either TCG's followers come from different worlds, or this is a figure of speech. A different "world" would be, for instance, a time period with a different zeitgeist.
  3. There's an atheist among them. "we killed our gods" and "you were too primitive". Sounds pretty Nietzschean to me, like what someone in the Renaissance or during the Scientific revolution would say to an ancient greek.
  4. Cassa and Leandris. Cassandra and Leander? Greek names? Are his followers, at least in part, of greek origin?

  1. MT
On the landscape before him was a vast city, rising up from a level plain with tiered gardens and raised walkways. A cluster of towers rose from the far side, reaching to extraordinary heights. Farmland reached out from the city’s outskirts in every direction for as far as Brys could see, strange shadows flowing over it as he watched. He pulled his gaze from the scene and looked down, to find that he stood on a platform of red-stained limestone. Before him steep steps ran downward, row upon row, hundreds, to a paved expanse flanked by blue-painted columns. A glance to his right revealed a sharply angled descent. He was on a flat-topped pyramid-shaped structure, and, he realized with a start, someone was standing beside him, on his left. A figure barely visible, ghostly, defying detail. It was tall, and seemed to be staring up at the sky, focused on the terrible dark wound. [...] Brys saw that a massive stone carving had come to rest there. A bizarre beast-like human, squatting with thickly muscled arms reaching down the front, converging with a two-handed grip on the penis. Shoulders and head were fashioned in the likeness of a bull. A second set of legs, feminine, were wrapped round the beast-man’s hips, the platform on which he crouched cut, Brys now saw, into a woman’s form, lying on her back beneath him. From nearby rose the clatter of scores of clay tablets – too distant for Brys to see if there was writing on them, though he suspected there might be – skidding as if on cushions of air before coming to a rest in a scattered swath. Fragments of buildings – cut limestone blocks, cornerstones, walls of adobe, wattle and daub. Then severed limbs, blood-drained sections of cattle and horses, a herd of something that might have been goats, each one turned inside out, intestines flopping. Dark-skinned humans – or at least their arms, legs and torsos.
‘A god, Brys Beddict. In its own realm, it was locked in a war. For there were rival gods. Temptations …’
  • This is a description of the realm from which TCG came.
  • The city seems to fit Babylon: the tiered gardens=hanging gardens of babylon, the pyramid in which Brys stands= a ziggurat, they also had blue dye applied to walls or columns, and them having tablets to scribe seems plausible.
  • The minotaur-like sculpture flies over my head.

  1. TtH
Its body is very far away indeed. I was granted an image of the flesh – a human, as far as I could tell, which is in itself rather extraordinary. I was able to capture the soul due to its heightened meditative state, one in which the detachment is very nearly absolute. I doubt the original body draws breath ten times a bell. A most spiritual individual, Crone.’ The Great Raven returned her attention to the apparition. Studied its jade eyes, its jagged traceries of crackling filaments, pulsing like a slowed heart. ‘And you know, then,’ she said. ‘Yes. The demon is from the realm of the Fallen One. His birthplace.’ ‘Meditating, you say. Seeking its god?’ ‘That seems likely,’ Baruk murmured. ‘Reaching, touching … recoiling.’
  1. So the followers of TCG meditate.
  2. They meditate to "seek their god".
  3. It mentions detachment. What religion meditates to detach from everything?
  4. The follower of TCG is essentially having an Out-of-body experience

  1. TCG
During TCG there are interludes woven into some chapters. With some attention, one realizes this is a conversation between Kaminsod and Ammanas, although we only get what Kaminsod says and his reactions, never what Shadowthrone is replying.
‘What you ask of me, it is too much. Yes, of course I see the necessity – I may have sickened, even threatened, but magic is not my enemy. It never was. Indeed, I envy its gifts to this world. Upon my own … ah, no matter. Belief can be rotten. All it takes is one betrayal to steal away an entire future.
You would not have recognized me in my anger. It shone blinding bright. There remain those, among the multitudes I left behind, who imagine themselves gods, for all their mortal trappings. They would maintain a tyranny such as no true god could ever imagine. They would enslave generation upon generation – all those sharing the same soil, the same water, the same air. They conspire to keep them on their knees. Bowed in servitude. And each slave, measuring his or her life, can see – if they dare – only the truth, and so most of my world, most of my children, live a life of despair and suffering, and ever growing rage.
‘Is this all there must be? The tyrants would have it so. I sometimes dream … yes, I know you have little time … I dream of returning, swords blazing with holy vengeance. I dream, Shadowthrone, of murdering every one of those fuckers. Is this what it means to be a god? To be an implacable weapon of justice?
‘Wouldn’t that be nice. I agree.
No, I’m not that much of a fool. It will be no different. And should you achieve the impossible with your handful of mortals, should you free me … and find the path, the moment I take my first step upon the soil of my home they will emasculate me. Bleed me. Gut me, and then stretch my hide overhead. They’ll need shade from the torrid heat of all the fires they themselves lit. That is the problem with tyrants, they outlive us all.
‘No, I don’t either. Betrayers never do.
‘Shadowthrone. You will not betray me, will you?’
  • Slavery, tyranny and despair. People that believe themselves gods.
  • A sword blazing with holy vengeance.
Also Draconus, Casually on TCG:
‘Where he came from, every god is a Shield Anvil.
The first thing to notice is the premise of the question. Erikson did not say the identity of Kaminsod could be figured out, just where he comes from. So even if we can figure out that Kaminsod comes from a particular culture or mythos in our world, that doesn't guarantee his identity will be uncovered.
What has been proposed
  • Baldr. The case was made by u/lost_highlander on his post. My main doubts are: it doesn't explain the greek names, I don't know if a cycle of reincarnations fits in Norse religion, it doesn't fit the jade theme, doesn't fit the atheist follower and finally, for me, it doesn't work thematically.
  • Dionysus, proposed by u/CrizzleCrazzle . It fits the greek names of the followers. In greek mythology, there is a tale where he is dismembered and then brought back to life using among other things his heart(like Kaminsod). My doubts are: doesn't work thematically, doesn't fit the jade, doesn't fit reincarnation.
  • The Buddha, proposed by myself in a comment to the previous post. What doesn't work, in light of this new evidence: the "you wouldn't know me in my rage", the city described on MT, the Raven association, the greek names of the followers. However, it seems to fit thematically to some degree.
  • Marduk: this is just a vague observation. If the city in MT is Babylon, then Marduk is the patron god of that city. Also, in that mythology, Marduk is the defeater of... Tiamat, the dragon goddess of destruction and likely inspiration to Malazan's Tiamatha. It doesn't fit much more as far as I know.
  • YHWH/Christ: this one doesn't work at all for me, but it has been proposed.
I've changed my mind since that last comment. Buddha doesn't fit, and neither does another Hindu deity because of the Greek names.
I think it's beyond reasonable doubt that Kaminsod does come from our world's mythology.
I suspect no deity can fit all these findings: Jade symbolism, Greek named followers, an atheist follower, a deity followed in "many worlds" speaking "many languages" and presumably during a wide period of time, from a city that resembles Babylon, linked to Ravens, compatible with successive reincarnations by which suffering leads to salvation, a Shield anvil aspect, practicing meditation... this is just a guess, I'm not particularly knowledgeable on religions and mythologies.
At this point, I suspect Kaminsod is either a syncretism of (our world's)gods or a deconstruction of the concept in the literary sense.
PD: one of the motivations of this post is to crowd-source this effort. This is what I've come up so far. Having these excerpts and the entire context might be helpful to anyone else interested on this effort.
PD2: just saying, if The Hand Of Kaminsod On Earth comments this post, I'm getting a tattoo(and I've never even considered that in my life).
As usual, any insight is appreciated.
Thanks for reading!
submitted by Niflrog to Malazan

Next Aerial: Fort Union National Monument in 1946. This is my favorite image because you can very clearly see the wagon ruts from the Santa Fe Trail! Also, note the star fort (built for the Civil War) and the adobe fort (post-Civil War) just NE of it.

Next Aerial: Fort Union National Monument in 1946. This is my favorite image because you can very clearly see the wagon ruts from the Santa Fe Trail! Also, note the star fort (built for the Civil War) and the adobe fort (post-Civil War) just NE of it. submitted by Yessie555 to NewMexico

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